venting of cabinets/chemical storage in hot weather

[pkij]

I think this topic has been discussed before, but anyway,
Earlier in the week I opened the flammables cabinet, which is located in the prep room where I spend most of my day, anyway I received quite a blast of vapours. This is quite concerning, what I am wondering is whether this cabinet should be vented and if so how do we go about this, the cabinet does have bungs on the side. There seems to be conflicting info about venting cabinets.
Also do most people have exhaust fans in their prep rooms/chem storage areas? We have quite new facilities but no provision has been made for ventilation, other than windows and doors.
Lastly how do you chemtalkers who live in hot areas go with chemical storage during the summer with extreme temperatures. All is good while i am here with the air conditioner on but over Xmas holidays i worry about how the temperature affects chemical storage (the room gets to 30++ degrees).
Any ideas??

[Judy R]

Our corrosive cahinents are vented but not our flammables (go figure!!!)
I have only been in Queensland for 2 years and so far no disasters with our flammable storge.
Neither of our Prep rooms have exhaust fans however we have wall fans and windows.
I only purchase 500ml bottles and keep minimum quantities so that helps.
It might pay to ask some of the mining and industrial places how they store flammable liquids in extreme heat.

[smiley]

PIlar,

I have a A/C going full time in my Chemstore. Mr Filch, AKA the janitor rumbles and grumbles and mutters about "..never did that in my day..." I blithely ignore him. I have left it on over weekends, especially when the weather forecast says its going to be hot. Oh that's right - I live in Cairns - it's ALWAYS hot!

I cited Australian Regulations that I'm not even certain exist. Think I got a glimmer on this forum that such regs do exist, and told my SAO that chemstores need to be 22 degrees all the time, even weekends. Try it on - what do you have to lose.

[nickyw]

Our chemical cabinets are vented and we do have an exhaust fan that runs all the time. We have louvered windows way up high (2nd floor) that are also open. Never has there been a problem with smells, vapours etc. You definately need ventilation.

As for the room being air conditioned, I could only wish. That little prep room gets mighty hot in the middle of the day and I drip with sweat whilst washing up bucket loads of glassware. I try to be out of there by 11:00 or the teachers leave the door open for me so I get some of their air-con. Never really thought what it was doing to the chemicals maybe that might persuade the powers that be that the room needs to be air-coned hmmmmm...

[coxy]

My chem store has an exhaust fan; but one of our science teachers also stores all the camping equipment (esky, hotplates/bbq gear, flyspray, papertowel, toilet paper, frisbees, - everything) in the Chem store room too, during the year. The only time the camping gear is not there is one week each year when they all go away!
I have a cupboard which is approx 7ft high, by 12ft long and 1ft deep with sliding glass doors -in my prep room; this is full of all the chemicals I use regularly including acids, flammables, Oxidising, everything! Because it is clean, neat and tidy, everyone thinks it is perfectly fine. The Prep room is where I spend 80% of my day, and unless I have the window open and ceiling fan on (which I usually do) there is no exhaust system, and certainly no air conditioning. In summer I swelter here, even though we are right on the coast. The only air conditioning in this school is in the Deputies' offices, the Principal's office, oh, and of course, the front office SASS staff have it too!

[hel]

We not long ago had our labs refurbished but before that I had an exhaust fan for the chemical store which vented into the prep room! However, since then things have improved significantly.

I managed to get airconditioning, not for me of course, but for the chemicals. A lot of chemicals should be stored in temperature no greater than 25C (manufacturers storage advice) otherwise you are exposed to the fumes they give off (that was my reassoning) & as the school was on an OH&S mission they felt obliged to comply. And as bonus they vented my chemical storage to the outside.

I dont envy you in the heat, Sydney is not so bad although my room has floor to ceiling glass so its like working in a solarium. Thank heavens they put the chemical store in the prep room so I can get the benefit of the airconditioning.

Cheers,
Helen

[sunray18]

My chemical store room has an exhaust fan going continually - but that is all.
The 8 year old Corrosives Cabinet is corroded!
Last year, I put lots of gear on trolleys into the store-room over Christmas break. When school returned, most of the metallic pieces were corroded - some to the point they had to be thrown out!
I have been assured that their are NO fumes in my Chemical Store-room - and it is completely safe.

[No aircon - even though my Prep room got up to 34 deg last week.. I went to tell the AP , he said I needed to check that my thermometer was correct ..all this said from his airconditioned office, which he never leaves in summer!

[Sassi]

[quote="nickyw"]Our chemical cabinets are vented and we do have an exhaust fan that runs all the time. We have louvered windows way up high (2nd floor) that are also open. Never has there been a problem with smells, vapours etc. You definately need ventilation.

Hi,

I have had it with the chemical smell in my chem store, up until recently all I had was to fans in the windows, which blew IN!!! Now that that has been fixed, which only took me a year of begging on my bare knees, and now that I have convinced them I need to have the fans on 24/7, I find that it is still not enough When I am working there for more than five minutes I get a headache and a funny taste in the back of my throat. I have asked to get the chemical cabinets vented, but I was laughed at by the maintenance guys, according to them that is impossible... Would you be able to post some photos of your vented chemical cabinets, so that I can prove to those ignorant men that it is possible indeed! I could find stuff on the internet, but I think it would help them to see that other schools do have it! They insist on me just making all of this up, because they cant smell anything when they step in there for 30sec, and they say that because an architect designed the building it must have adequate ventilation

Sassi

[lada]

We have a proper extraction fan in my chem store. It is connected on a spark-free switch with the lights, soon as lights go on, so does this fan. It is very noisy, but i would say, it changes the air in a few minutes. The flammable cupboard is not ventilated, but when I do inventory, I leave the doors open for a few seconds and smell is gone.
We had it done 4 years ago for the school inpection-not for my benefit, but I am not complaining.
Lada

[Robb]

Hi All,

I am going to inject myself into the posts here for a few things.

Standard Laboratory Temperature is 20 Degrees C, this is for Research and Development purposes so that reactions can take place and become standardised. in the school system we cannot control these very well over long durations (holidays unless we leave them on on purpose).

Some Flammable Liquid Cabnet manufacturers do supply the cupboards vented, but personally I will not purchase any vented cupboards from the point being that there are toxic gasses venting from them either from high temperatures or fire.

If there is any fume eminating from the cabinet then this will be natural as orgainc vapours do penetrate the plastic lids.

The ideal conditions would be to keep all chemicals at 20 Degrees to prevent orgainc breakdown or degredation or even polymorphism of certain chemicals.

If some people are experiencing effect of fume or vapours then a relocation of the cabinet may be necesarry.

I hope this has offered some information torwards the cause of this post.

Cheers,

Robb....

[ellice]

It is interesting to read all the different set ups in schools.
We had all our labs refurbished four years ago, and I now have A/C in the prep room. There is a separate room for chemical storage which is ventilated 24/7. I have a 250L flammables cupd in the Prep room, and I must admit, I don't have any problems with smells and vapours. Maybe my nose has stopped working!!Or it could be because it is relatively cool all the time, so there is minimum evaporation of the organics.
So, regards the people having problems, I'm wondering if the bottles aren't sealed properly. I've actually put tape around the edges of the tops, and have nothing in a container with a rubber top (dropper bottles). Other than that, it would have to be an OHS issue. You shouldn't be expected to work in an environment that is detrimental to your health.
Ellice.

[pkij]

Thanks for all your comments so far, it obviously is a problem for many people. Sassi, I have no faith whatsoever in architects, in the original plans we had for refurbishment at our college he had acid storage cupboard above benches, at eye level .
I have approval to get the cupboards vented but not to leave the air conditioner on over Xmas holidays. I am working on getting an exhaust fan installed .

[Ocker]

My organic store has an exhaust fan, but when you leave it on, it creates a negative pressure in the room that causes the floor waste trap to evaporate very quickly then sucks up all the sewer fumes into the room, hence I leave the fan OFF

[bernie]

I am only in Brisbane so our heat isn't as bad as up where you are. Our Workplace Health and Safety Officer also our maintenance supervisor has instructed me not to turn the air con off. He said it was put in for the chemicals not for me and therefore should not be turned off when I go home or over the holidays. It also filters the air therefore making it safer for me. It helped that a bottle broke and leaked due to a build up of pressure in the heat one year and that is when they installed air con.

[estelle]

Hi,
I think it was me that started this off a couple of weeks ago asking about venting the flammable cupboard because like you ,I keep copping a build up of vapours as I open the flammable cupboard. This is causing me health problems, it feels like I am having an asthma attack and then I get short of breath and cough. So much so, that last Friday after having to get flammables out and ending up coughing so much that I ended up with a sore chest all day Saturday from it.
I have asked the OH&S committee if the f/c could be vented but at the last meeting they said it would have to be inspected by the "department" so that it followed guidelines. Not sure which millenium that will be!!
Anyway, the SAM here has a son who is a firie so he was sent up to inspect the cupboard and explained that it defeats the purpose venting it because the idea is that in the event of a fire then the fire department needs to know that the flammables are contained within the cupboard. If it was vented then that wouldn't be the case, so it is a safety issue for them.
He suggested inspecting the bottle lids for leakages, cleaning the all the bottles and shelves in case stuff had been spilt and possibly putting in a tray of carb soda, clay etc to absorb any odours.
So, now the principal is happy because someone has inspected it and she said I have to wear a mask while in there. That pretty much gets the deptartment off the hook I figure.
Yesterday I dressed in labcoat, gloves, safety glasses, and mask with two gas cartridges and cleaned and decanted and disposed of excess flammables. I emptied the spirit bottles and dried out the wicks because I think they give off a mixture of vapour if left because the lids don't seal.
Felt rather sick and headachy after it, the mask seems to keep the smell out but it does get rather stuffy, the flammable cupboard looked great by the time I had finished.
This morning I checked for vapours and TA DA, it still STINKS!!! Not quite as bad but enough to make me want to get the gas mask.
Back to the drawing board.
Plan B: Mask for each of the teachers, and get them to get their own flammables out. Just kidding!
I think we should all get a pay rise different to other sao because we are going to need it to pay for future health problems.
Anyway, have a great, fume free day.
Estelle.
P.S. I leave the exhaust system running 24/7

[pkij]

I can sympathise with you Estelle, when I opened the cabinet the vapours made me feel dizzy and light headed, I am sure it is not good for the health.
I am still doing some investigation but as far as I can see the standard AS1940 2004 covers the storage of flammable goods, I think you have to "buy" the actual standard, but from other sites I think that cabinets can be vented with certain precautions. The following link has some information but does not talk about cabinet venting.
http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/chem/pu ... ensing.pdf
The head WHS guy for Catholic schools in our diocese has told me that the cabinet should be vented. I am waiting to hear back from the dept of emergency services and WHS department. Will post when I hear anything.

[Loopy]

Hey Guys,
I don't know if this will help you any but I have attached two photos of my set up for chem stores. I have one red fire proof box and one yellow in my Haz Chem Store and both of my chem stores are have vents that are "hard wired" and cannot be turned off (the rest of the school is run by computer). Maybe you could look to getting cabinets in the future such as I have?
Best of luck regardless,
Lou.
PS Sorry I forgot to rotate them... just look at them with your head to one side!

[pkij]

Just heard from our community safety guy from fire services, he says that the cabinet should be vented ie. the hole in the side should be open. The cabinets are designed to prevent fire from going back into the cabinet and by venting this would also stop the build up of flammable vapour in the cabinet if it heats too much (this could lead to explosion). It does not mean that another pipe can be attached to the cabinet vent to exhaust to the out side however. This would compromise the fire safety design.

I guess this means that some kind of exhaust would be needed in the room where the cabinet is, to prevent exposure to the vapour, Loopy your set up with hard wired exhaust looks like the way to go.

[Lis]

Hi All

I know we have discussed this before, but I cant find it, what I am looking for is; are we able to store other things in the chem store. I have a huge chem store, well ventillated, great shelving, etc etc, but it is so big we will never fill it with chemicals and I am finding myself storing other things like the larger electrical equipment, old exam papers, and such.But I also store empty bottles, glass tubing/rods, water/soil testing kits, bulk boxes of petri dishes, paper towels, gloves.... Our Principal has asked me to look into it, and we may be able to have a wall built to divide the chem store into 2 rooms. I would rather have shelves built in my very large prep room, to use for equipment. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

cheers
Lisa

R.I.P.MJ

[Labbie]

I also store our new glass ware in with the chem store. We have a stock of glass ware, just in case of breakage. NOT a good item to store text books in the chem store. Their was a lady once from chemtalk, who was asked to store some text books in with the chemicals. But as it turned out, its a NO NO. Due to the fact most people Students lick their fingers when they turn a page. And the chemical store would have more air born chemicals then any where else. So we just have glass & plastic plus chemcials.